Discussion:
Cole Johnson
2013-08-08 17:03:12 UTC
Permalink
My friend picked up a Linksys BEFSR81 router (<http://msupport.linksys.com/en-us/support/routers/BEFSR81>) at D[EFF]con, and we're working on modding/hacking it. However, we can't find the source code for it.


We've contacted Linksys tech support and they claim that they /"used to"/ provide the source code upon request. However, the support person claimed that because the router has been EOL ("End of Life") for 3 years, they are unable to provide us with the source code.


As far as we know, Linksys runs Linux. Linux is licensed under the GPLv2. They even mention in the email that the source code is open source ("open source based source code"). I'm pretty sure this is a clear violation.
Thank you for contacting the office of the Open Source Manager located within Linksys. Please allow 2-3 business days for our office to get back to you. Please note the purpose of this office is to handle Open Source inquiries/requests for Linksys products/services.
If you need assistance troubleshooting your product, visit our Linksys Support website www.linksys.com/support where you will find Downloads, Guide Me, FAQs, Community Forums, Videos and Live Chat.
To contact us, visitsupport.linksys.com/contactus
Thank you and have a great day.
Hi I talked to your twitter support about getting the firmware and/or the source code for the BEFSR81 ver. 3 router. I also wanted to know if I could get a diagram depicting the serial port pinouts on the board.
Thank You, Terry Morrison
I hope you get the picture, can you please show me where the serial port pinouts are and the labels of them?
Thank You, Terry Morrison
Thank you for contacting the Office of the Open Source Manager.
The product you requested has been in EOL status for more than 3 years. As a result, we are no longer providing open source-based source code for this device. You may check firmware availability by visiting http://support.linksys.com.
Thank you for using our E-mail support system. We appreciate your business and strive to provide excellent service. A summary of your initial e-mail and our responses are included below. We hope we've been able to assist you. If not, please contact us again by replying to this message.
Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.
Please enter your reply in the space below. Text entered anywhere else in the reply will be discarded.
[===> Please enter your reply below this line <===]
Hi, I'm wondering why you have stopped providing the source code for this device. Your routers run Linux and are therefore open source. I'm not trying to be rude, but you must have a copy lying around somewhere...
[===> Please enter your reply above this line <===]
For reference, here is a screenshot of the email: <Loading Image...>


Is this a violation? If so, can we do something about it and not bring it back to Chad? Please?


----

Cole Johnson
-- E-mail: ***@gmail.com
-- Twitter: @5urd

Hexware, LLC
-- Twitter: @HexwareLLC
Neil Brown
2013-08-09 07:44:24 UTC
Permalink
On 8 Aug 2013, at 18:03, "Cole Johnson" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Cole
Post by Cole Johnson
We've contacted Linksys tech support and they claim that they /"used to"/ provide the source code upon request. However, the support person claimed that because the router has been EOL ("End of Life") for 3 years, they are unable to provide us with the source code.
Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party...
If "EOL" means "distributed that router no more recently than three years ago", Linksys' response would seem compliant, since the obligation to provide source code if the written offer method is chosen is not unlimited in term.
Post by Cole Johnson
My friend picked up a Linksys BEFSR81 router (<http://msupport.linksys.com/en-us/support/routers/BEFSR81>) at D[EFF]con
Might the person who supplied the router to your friend have a copy of the source code, which you could request from them? I would be surprised if they were bound by the GPL — it would depend on the circumstances — but, if they were hackers too, they might have the source code (or what they claim is the source code: warning!).


Neil

__________

Neil Brown
***@neilzone.co.uk | http://neilzone.co.uk
Ralph Corderoy
2013-08-09 10:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Cole Johnson
Post by Cole Johnson
We've contacted Linksys tech support and they claim that they /"used
to"/ provide the source code upon request. However, the support
person claimed that because the router has been EOL ("End of Life")
for 3 years, they are unable to provide us with the source code.
Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years,
to give any third party...
I wonder if this will become more common as the age of hardware with
GPL'd software increases. The free-software community is used to their
source archives living around forever but companies might easily stop
providing the source for various reasons; link rot, re-designed site,
takeover, or clean-up when three years is reached.

I don't suppose http://archive.org/ captures them all. Do we need a
central archive of companies' releases or are they of little value after
three years of the device not shipping? (I'm using quite a bit of
hardware older than that.)

Cheers, Ralph.
Cole Johnson
2013-08-09 12:51:17 UTC
Permalink
 Might the person who supplied the router to your friend have a copy of the source code, which you could request from them?
No, sadly. We asked, and he said he's tried to get to the code, but has been unable to.



----

Cole Johnson
-- E-mail: ***@gmail.com
-- Twitter: @5urd

Hexware, LLC
-- Twitter: @HexwareLLC
Thomas Charron
2013-08-09 18:16:55 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Cole Johnson
Post by Cole Johnson
Post by Neil Brown
Might the person who supplied the router to your friend have a copy of the
source code, which you could request from them?
No, sadly. We asked, and he said he's tried to get to the code, but has been unable to.
Are you sure it even runs with GPL code? It was a long while ago,
but I thought that it was an ARM router with like 1 meg flash or
something.
--
-- Thomas
Cole Johnson
2013-08-09 19:16:29 UTC
Permalink
 Are you sure it even runs with GPL code?  It was a long while ago,
but I thought that it was an ARM router with like 1 meg flash or
something.


Doesn't the WRT54g use Linux? This model looks the nearly the exact same on the outside. It's newer than the WRT54g



----

Cole Johnson
-- E-mail: ***@gmail.com
-- Twitter: @5urd

Hexware, LLC
-- Twitter: @HexwareLLC
SonWon
2013-08-09 21:42:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cole Johnson
Doesn't the WRT54g use Linux? This model looks the nearly the exact same
on the outside. It's newer than the WRT54g
It does, I have one using tomato firmware<http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato>
.
Thomas Charron
2013-08-09 19:29:18 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Cole Johnson
Post by Thomas Charron
Post by Thomas Charron
Are you sure it even runs with GPL code? It was a long while ago,
but I thought that it was an ARM router with like 1 meg flash or
something.
Doesn't the WRT54g use Linux? This model looks the nearly the exact same on
the outside. It's newer than the WRT54g
I suggest you do some research. Many of their documents have
'canned' GPL sections. But to answer the direct question, the
physical look for all of Linksys products looked the same, but under
the hood they where DRAMATICALLY different.

Even the WRT54G shipped with a wide variety of configurations and
over half running VxWorks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linksys_WRT54G_series
--
-- Thomas
Armijn Hemel
2013-08-10 02:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cole Johnson
Doesn't the WRT54g use Linux? This model looks the nearly the exact
same on the outside. It's newer than the WRT54g
Casing doesn't say anything. The only reason it looks the same is that
it makes the devices nicely stackable. I have seen many Linksys devices
with exactly the same casing and completely different internals. There
is no GPL code in this device as far as I can see.

armijn
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
***@gpl-violations.org || http://www.gpl-violations.org/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Scutter
2013-08-09 20:26:01 UTC
Permalink
What source exactly are you trying to get? It runs VxWorks...
Post by Thomas Charron
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Cole Johnson
Post by Cole Johnson
Post by Neil Brown
Might the person who supplied the router to your friend have a copy of the
source code, which you could request from them?
No, sadly. We asked, and he said he's tried to get to the code, but has been unable to.
Are you sure it even runs with GPL code? It was a long while ago,
but I thought that it was an ARM router with like 1 meg flash or
something.
--
-- Thomas
Armijn Hemel
2013-08-10 02:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Scutter
What source exactly are you trying to get? It runs VxWorks...
Actually I don't think it even runs VxWorks but some other RTOS. It's
definitely not Linux. I did a quick analysis of a few of the firmwares
that are available for download and I could not find any GPL licensed
code in it.

armijn
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
***@gpl-violations.org || http://www.gpl-violations.org/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arnt Karlsen
2013-08-09 12:02:25 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 10:03:12 -0700 (PDT), Cole wrote in message
Post by Cole Johnson
My friend picked up a Linksys BEFSR81 router
(<http://msupport.linksys.com/en-us/support/routers/BEFSR81>) at
D[EFF]con,
..exactly when did your friend pick it up?
That decides the 3 years in the GPLv2.
Post by Cole Johnson
and we're working on modding/hacking it. However, we can't
find the source code for it.
We've contacted Linksys tech support and they claim that they /"used
to"/ provide the source code upon request. However, the support
person claimed that because the router has been EOL ("End of Life")
for 3 years,
..irrelevant, their 3 year source code obligation ends 3 years after
their last sale etc distribution under the terms of the GPL. If they
e.g. sold it to some mall 4 years ago, and that mall gave it to
"D[EFF]con" 2 years ago, your friend will follow that route back to
the source. No source at the mall means no more license for the mall
nor for "D[EFF]con", etc. Just follow your chain of distributional
custody transfers.
Post by Cole Johnson
they are unable to provide us with the source code.
..now that would be unwise, as it would have them lose e.g. Wallmart
as a sales channel.
Post by Cole Johnson
As far as we know, Linksys runs Linux. Linux is licensed under the
GPLv2. They even mention in the email that the source code is open
source ("open source based source code"). I'm pretty sure this is a
clear violation.
..you have not shown us that yet.
Post by Cole Johnson
We've sent off an email to their legal department, but have yet to
receive a response.
..are they aware of your chain of custody transfers?
Do they have any obligations under the GPLv2 coming
from your chain of custody transfers?
Post by Cole Johnson
For reference, here is the convorsation with the
support team. I've added a screenshot link below. Also, his
Thank you for contacting the office of the Open Source Manager
located within Linksys. Please allow 2-3 business days for our
office to get back to you. Please note the purpose of this office
is to handle Open Source inquiries/requests for Linksys
products/services. If you need assistance troubleshooting your
product, visit our Linksys Support
website www.linksys.com/support where you will find Downloads,
Guide Me, FAQs, Community Forums, Videos and Live Chat. To contact
us, visitsupport.linksys.com/contactus Thank you and have a great
day.
Hi I talked to your twitter support about getting the firmware
and/or the source code for the BEFSR81 ver. 3 router. I also wanted
to know if I could get a diagram depicting the serial port pinouts
on the board. Thank You, Terry Morrison
I hope you get the picture, can you please show me where the serial
port pinouts are and the labels of them? Thank You, Terry Morrison
Thank you for contacting the Office of the Open Source Manager.
The product you requested has been in EOL status for more than 3
years. As a result, we are no longer providing open source-based
source code for this device. You may check firmware availability by
visiting http://support.linksys.com.
Thank you for using our E-mail support system. We appreciate your
business and strive to provide excellent service. A summary of your
initial e-mail and our responses are included below. We hope we've
been able to assist you. If not, please contact us again by
replying to this message. Thank you for allowing us to be of
service to you. Please enter your reply in the space below. Text
entered anywhere else in the reply will be discarded. [===> Please
enter your reply below this line <===] Hi, I'm wondering why you
have stopped providing the source code for this device. Your
routers run Linux and are therefore open source. I'm not trying to
be rude, but you must have a copy lying around somewhere... [===>
Please enter your reply above this line <===]
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/nwerzfujdz2pgoc/Photo%20Aug%2008%2C%209%2041%2028%20AM.png>
Is this a violation? If so, can we do something about it and not
bring it back to Chad? Please?
----
Cole Johnson
Hexware, LLC
--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.
Neil Brown
2013-08-09 14:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnt Karlsen
Post by Cole Johnson
My friend picked up a Linksys BEFSR81 router
(<http://msupport.linksys.com/en-us/support/routers/BEFSR81>) at
D[EFF]con,
..exactly when did your friend pick it up?
That decides the 3 years in the GPLv2.
If the vendor was the first to put that instance of the device on the market in the US, I could see that being the case

If the vendor was reselling a device which had already been on the market (e.g. selling a secondhand device, even if still in the original wrapping) — which was how I read the original post, but I may be wrong — I would not have thought that copyright law, and the terms of the GPL, was of relevance.




Neil

__________

Neil Brown
***@neilzone.co.uk | http://neilzone.co.uk
Arnt Karlsen
2013-08-09 17:50:32 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Aug 2013 15:12:06 +0100, Neil wrote in message
Post by Neil Brown
Post by Arnt Karlsen
Post by Cole Johnson
My friend picked up a Linksys BEFSR81 router
(<http://msupport.linksys.com/en-us/support/routers/BEFSR81>) at
D[EFF]con,
..exactly when did your friend pick it up?
That decides the 3 years in the GPLv2.
If the vendor was the first to put that instance of the device on the
market in the US, I could see that being the case
If the vendor was reselling a device which had already been on the
market (e.g. selling a secondhand device, even if still in the
original wrapping) — which was how I read the original post, but I
may be wrong — I would not have thought that copyright law, and the
terms of the GPL, was of relevance.
..I see no difference selling brand new and 2'nd hand stuff
under the GPLv2, the only "such" difference is the "hobbyist
privilege" in §3c on noncommercial distribution.

.."picked up" in US English, suggests a purchase. Cole?
--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.
Neil Brown
2013-08-09 20:32:11 UTC
Permalink
On 9 Aug 2013, at 18:50, Arnt Karlsen <***@iaksess.no> wrote:

Evening, Arnt
Post by Arnt Karlsen
..I see no difference selling brand new and 2'nd hand stuff
under the GPLv2
My interpretation would be that, in a second hand sale of a piece of hardware with embedded software, the act of resale does not constitute an act restricted by copyright, and so there is no need for a licence, so whatever the GPL might, or might not, say is immaterial.

The GPL, as you say, does not make such a distinction, but I don't think it needs to: this is an issue of copyright law, and whether a licence is required, rather than a term of the licence itself.


Neil

__________

Neil Brown
***@neilzone.co.uk | http://neilzone.co.uk
Arnt Karlsen
2013-08-10 10:16:21 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Aug 2013 21:32:11 +0100, Neil wrote in message
Post by Neil Brown
Evening, Arnt
Post by Arnt Karlsen
..I see no difference selling brand new and 2'nd hand stuff
under the GPLv2
My interpretation would be that, in a second hand sale of a piece of
hardware with embedded software, the act of resale does not
constitute an act restricted by copyright, and so there is no need
for a licence, so whatever the GPL might, or might not, say is
immaterial.
..I disagree, and §3c solves this for non-commercial resales,
gifts etc by giving that license. If you picked it up legally,
you will have access to the paperwork containing the written
offer on source, or the source itself, and you just pass it all
on with the hardware containing the software.
Post by Neil Brown
The GPL, as you say, does not make such a distinction, but I don't
think it needs to: this is an issue of copyright law, and whether a
licence is required, rather than a term of the licence itself.
Neil
__________
Neil Brown
--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.
Cole Johnson
2013-08-09 21:40:19 UTC
Permalink
 picked up, suggests a purchase. Cole?
Yes. A purchase. Roughly $20.
----

Cole Johnson
-- E-mail: ***@gmail.com
-- Twitter: @5urd

Hexware, LLC
On Fri, 9 Aug 2013 15:12:06 +0100, Neil wrote in message
Post by Neil Brown
Post by Arnt Karlsen
Post by Cole Johnson
My friend picked up a Linksys BEFSR81 router
(<http://msupport.linksys.com/en-us/support/routers/BEFSR81>) at
D[EFF]con,
..exactly when did your friend pick it up?
That decides the 3 years in the GPLv2.
If the vendor was the first to put that instance of the device on the
market in the US, I could see that being the case
If the vendor was reselling a device which had already been on the
market (e.g. selling a secondhand device, even if still in the
original wrapping) — which was how I read the original post, but I
may be wrong — I would not have thought that copyright law, and the
terms of the GPL, was of relevance.
..I see no difference selling brand new and 2'nd hand stuff
under the GPLv2, the only "such" difference is the "hobbyist
privilege" in §3c on noncommercial distribution.
.."picked up" in US English, suggests a purchase. Cole?
--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
best case, worst case, and just in case.
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